Are you saying a girl's voice can attain the same quality as a boy treble voice? Or are you saying: okay both voices are different but equally suited to certain genres of music?liberavieve wrote:I can't help but think that the so-called essential, eternal, ephemeral (or what have you) quality of the boy's voice is 'the old lie' in this old argument, and I have a difficult time buying into the idea that 'boys' voices alone are the ones suited to such-and-such a genre, because they sound such-and-such a way.' Just listen to how celebrated treble voices have changed over the past century. We've invented the Essential Treble Voice for ourselves, and we've internalised the idea into our collective imagination.
The Treble Chorister Voice, I think, is just as socially-constructed as the Pop Princess Voice, as the Teen Boy Band Voice. It's down to education, if not in full then at least in enormous part, and if it's only boys who are being educated and conditioned to sing in such a way, of course it's only the boys who will sing that way.
Girls in Libera...!
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maartendas
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Well, thanks for your honest reply.
To answer your questions (and I think you could probably guess the answers):
If Libera were to admit seven- to sixteen-year-old girls alongside the seven- to sixteen-year-old boys, would it harm the group in terms of musical quality?
No, I don’t think it would affect the technical quality of the group. I have no doubt that girls are as good singers as boys. You can either sing (or be taught to sing) or you can’t and I’m not aware of any evidence that suggests one gender is more favoured than the other in this talent, but then again I haven’t looked for it as it is of no interest to me.
In terms of popularity?
I think it most certainly would reduce the interest in the group – it would reduce mine. As Rebecca said, I can’t see the fan girls lusting after the girl singers. Also, rightly or wrongly, young girls singing soprano does not surprise anybody. No shock value at all. But people less educated to the human voice or choirs are often surprised at the sounds a boy treble can produce. Sometimes negatively but more usually positively. The rarity value of a group of young boys singing so well (beautifully?) creates it’s own fan base that I think would be diluted with the addition of girls.
What if the group (or one similar) were to admit only girls of that age?
A much better idea. Set up a girls only choir ages 8 -16 and let’s see how many boys beg to join. My guess is that it would be a very, very short queue.
Would Libera admitting girls (in addition to or in place of boys) be different from St Philip's doing the same for worship services?
A much harder question to answer. Libera won’t admit girls because its Articles of Association set out its governing terms as teaching boys to sing. That is what Libera exists to do. Now, whether St P’s decides to admit girls (and women) to its choir is a separate issue. I’ve never been to St P’s and so I can only speculate. It is a rare thing these days for such a small church to sustain a choir, and even rarer that it is all male. I suspect (and it is purely a guess on my part) that if push came to shove the leading figures behind the choir would leave and the result would be no choir at all.
In your second post you gave some more detail on your opinions on the matter. One of your points was that you believed there is no difference in the sound of a boy treble and a girl soprano. I can’t agree with that. They sound nothing alike, except at the extreme. Foe example if you recorded 100 boys speaking and 100 girls I suspect that just about everybody could tell which was which. Sure there will be a small overlap of girls that sound like boys and vice versa but for the majority it will be obvious. Why should that be different for singing?
To take the point further, I listened to the Young Chorister of the Year competition (which, incidentally, was originally a competition for girls). It features four boys and four girls singing a couple of songs each and then they elect one girl and one boy as the winner. They sound nothing alike. Not even close – it is a totally different sound and it is especially noticeable at the older end (the girls were up to 16 the boys maybe up to 13). And that is another difference. We all know what happens to a boy’s voice at puberty. A girls voice also changes although not as dramatically and girls go through puberty about two years earlier than boys iirc. Having girls up to the age of 16 would totally change the balance of sound that the group produced.
I have listened to girls groups sing (the Ave Maria clips posted by Symphonica are a perfect example) and mixed children’s choirs and they do not sound like a boys only group. Never that I have heard anyway. If you have examples please post them and lets do some comparisons.
Finally, you seem to suggest that the differences are imagined and boys preferences to not sing with girls are the product of socialisation. And here is where your argument becomes, in my opinion, a classical example of politically correct thinking. I remember when I took had to take some sociology classes back in the 80’s. My lefty lecturer was insistent that genetics played no part in intelligence and that low IQ’s were the product of poverty and lack of opportunity. Unfortunately he could never quite manage to explain why Princess Di was thick as the proverbial. Needless to say I nearly flunked that module.
Your supposition that gender types are imposed by socialisation is, I would also suggest, nonsense in large part. Humans are of course incredibly diverse and complicated. However, I know of many mothers who were determined not to let their sons grow up to be ‘macho’ and were determined to influence their development by denying them ‘boys’ toys and trying to put them in touch with ‘their feminine side’. It is surprising how many give up in despair when boys behave, well, like boys (and girls behave like girls). I would be interested to get the perspective of any parents as to whether they have noticed this or if I’m just spouting poo.
Good luck with your thesis but as Sociology professors are always lefties I’m sure you’ll do just fine (sorry, just couldn’t resist!).
To answer your questions (and I think you could probably guess the answers):
If Libera were to admit seven- to sixteen-year-old girls alongside the seven- to sixteen-year-old boys, would it harm the group in terms of musical quality?
No, I don’t think it would affect the technical quality of the group. I have no doubt that girls are as good singers as boys. You can either sing (or be taught to sing) or you can’t and I’m not aware of any evidence that suggests one gender is more favoured than the other in this talent, but then again I haven’t looked for it as it is of no interest to me.
In terms of popularity?
I think it most certainly would reduce the interest in the group – it would reduce mine. As Rebecca said, I can’t see the fan girls lusting after the girl singers. Also, rightly or wrongly, young girls singing soprano does not surprise anybody. No shock value at all. But people less educated to the human voice or choirs are often surprised at the sounds a boy treble can produce. Sometimes negatively but more usually positively. The rarity value of a group of young boys singing so well (beautifully?) creates it’s own fan base that I think would be diluted with the addition of girls.
What if the group (or one similar) were to admit only girls of that age?
A much better idea. Set up a girls only choir ages 8 -16 and let’s see how many boys beg to join. My guess is that it would be a very, very short queue.
Would Libera admitting girls (in addition to or in place of boys) be different from St Philip's doing the same for worship services?
A much harder question to answer. Libera won’t admit girls because its Articles of Association set out its governing terms as teaching boys to sing. That is what Libera exists to do. Now, whether St P’s decides to admit girls (and women) to its choir is a separate issue. I’ve never been to St P’s and so I can only speculate. It is a rare thing these days for such a small church to sustain a choir, and even rarer that it is all male. I suspect (and it is purely a guess on my part) that if push came to shove the leading figures behind the choir would leave and the result would be no choir at all.
In your second post you gave some more detail on your opinions on the matter. One of your points was that you believed there is no difference in the sound of a boy treble and a girl soprano. I can’t agree with that. They sound nothing alike, except at the extreme. Foe example if you recorded 100 boys speaking and 100 girls I suspect that just about everybody could tell which was which. Sure there will be a small overlap of girls that sound like boys and vice versa but for the majority it will be obvious. Why should that be different for singing?
To take the point further, I listened to the Young Chorister of the Year competition (which, incidentally, was originally a competition for girls). It features four boys and four girls singing a couple of songs each and then they elect one girl and one boy as the winner. They sound nothing alike. Not even close – it is a totally different sound and it is especially noticeable at the older end (the girls were up to 16 the boys maybe up to 13). And that is another difference. We all know what happens to a boy’s voice at puberty. A girls voice also changes although not as dramatically and girls go through puberty about two years earlier than boys iirc. Having girls up to the age of 16 would totally change the balance of sound that the group produced.
I have listened to girls groups sing (the Ave Maria clips posted by Symphonica are a perfect example) and mixed children’s choirs and they do not sound like a boys only group. Never that I have heard anyway. If you have examples please post them and lets do some comparisons.
Finally, you seem to suggest that the differences are imagined and boys preferences to not sing with girls are the product of socialisation. And here is where your argument becomes, in my opinion, a classical example of politically correct thinking. I remember when I took had to take some sociology classes back in the 80’s. My lefty lecturer was insistent that genetics played no part in intelligence and that low IQ’s were the product of poverty and lack of opportunity. Unfortunately he could never quite manage to explain why Princess Di was thick as the proverbial. Needless to say I nearly flunked that module.
Your supposition that gender types are imposed by socialisation is, I would also suggest, nonsense in large part. Humans are of course incredibly diverse and complicated. However, I know of many mothers who were determined not to let their sons grow up to be ‘macho’ and were determined to influence their development by denying them ‘boys’ toys and trying to put them in touch with ‘their feminine side’. It is surprising how many give up in despair when boys behave, well, like boys (and girls behave like girls). I would be interested to get the perspective of any parents as to whether they have noticed this or if I’m just spouting poo.
Good luck with your thesis but as Sociology professors are always lefties I’m sure you’ll do just fine (sorry, just couldn’t resist!).
If I’ve got owt to say I says it, and if I’ve got owt to ask I asks it.
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JimmyRiddle
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Just to add to what's been discussed so far. The other point is.... Why?
Why change something that's working so well and has been for many years.
Libera are steamrolling on with great success in their popularity at present. They are probably over subscribed with interest in boys wanting to join the choir in and around South London. I've nothing against all girl groups, even mixed choirs. However on the same note if a group wants to remain same gender and has been hugely successful doing it this way, then they should be allowed the right to remain exactly as they are without fear of coming under pressure from the Politically Correct insanity of left wing crackpots.
Why change something that's working so well and has been for many years.
Libera are steamrolling on with great success in their popularity at present. They are probably over subscribed with interest in boys wanting to join the choir in and around South London. I've nothing against all girl groups, even mixed choirs. However on the same note if a group wants to remain same gender and has been hugely successful doing it this way, then they should be allowed the right to remain exactly as they are without fear of coming under pressure from the Politically Correct insanity of left wing crackpots.
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symphonica7
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Yorkie wrote:Your supposition that gender types are imposed by socialisation is, I would also suggest, nonsense in large part. Humans are of course incredibly diverse and complicated. However, I know of many mothers who were determined not to let their sons grow up to be ‘macho’ and were determined to influence their development by denying them ‘boys’ toys and trying to put them in touch with ‘their feminine side’. It is surprising how many give up in despair when boys behave, well, like boys (and girls behave like girls). I would be interested to get the perspective of any parents as to whether they have noticed this or if I’m just spouting poo.
Interesting topic! I think boys and girls are just different, and that's OK. Maybe hormones make the difference. They seem to take over no matter how you socialize them.
My nephew was born loving guns and wanting to be a soldier. My sister didn't try to change him. He has always been a kind person and volunteered all through high school working with special needs kids, but he loved "boyish" things. So she bought him the GIJoes, violent video games and paintballing equipment he wanted. He's an Army officer now and a perfect example of our "best and brightest" defending this country.
My sister-in-law, on the other hand, declared that her oldest son was not to have any toy guns or swords. (A little odd considering her husband likes to go hunting.) But anyway, she finally gave up when he was at the dinner table using carrot and celery sticks to shoot at things. Since then all 3 of her sons have bagged their first buck by the age of 10.
I'm glad boys are different than girls. Life would be boring otherwise.
Oh, and boys and girls voices sound different to me also. I don't know how to explain it. A boy's treble voice has a bell-like quality to it. It kind of "rings."
Lauren
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symphonica7
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Well said Lex!!!! So we are talking nature vs nurture a never ending debate.....I'm just going to skip that all together.
I agree Lex, Trebles do have a certain ring to them which can only be achieved by boys obviously. Point is...trebles are cherished....for they are only here for a whishper, then it is lost....something special, which I'm sure is one of the main factors why most of us here are so drawn to boy's choirs/Libera to begin with. Sorry, I just repeated what everybody else has said already......haha.
I agree Lex, Trebles do have a certain ring to them which can only be achieved by boys obviously. Point is...trebles are cherished....for they are only here for a whishper, then it is lost....something special, which I'm sure is one of the main factors why most of us here are so drawn to boy's choirs/Libera to begin with. Sorry, I just repeated what everybody else has said already......haha.
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Rebecca (:
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That's a very good point. I'll have my soprano voice forever, but none of our Libera boys will. It's very impressive that they are able to sing like they do, which is another reason we are drawn to them, I believe. For a short amount of time in their lives they are able to let their voices soar high, to notes most of us can only dream of hitting, leaving us wanting to hear more and more....symphonica7 wrote:Well said Lex!!!! So we are talking nature vs nurture a never ending debate.....I'm just going to skip that all together.
I agree Lex, Trebles do have a certain ring to them which can only be achieved by boys obviously. Point is...trebles are cherished....for they are only here for a whishper, then it is lost....something special, which I'm sure is one of the main factors why most of us here are so drawn to boy's choirs/Libera to begin with. Sorry, I just repeated what everybody else has said already......haha.
I'm getting the feeling our opinions have scared you offliberavieve wrote:
But precious little of it has to do with the sound of the choir. I can't help but think that the so-called essential, eternal, ephemeral (or what have you) quality of the boy's voice is 'the old lie' in this old argument, and I have a difficult time buying into the idea that 'boys' voices alone are the ones suited to such-and-such a genre, because they sound such-and-such a way.' Just listen to how celebrated treble voices have changed over the past century. We've invented the Essential Treble Voice for ourselves, and we've internalised the idea into our collective imagination.
The Treble Chorister Voice, I think, is just as socially-constructed as the Pop Princess Voice, as the Teen Boy Band Voice. It's down to education, if not in full then at least in enormous part, and if it's only boys who are being educated and conditioned to sing in such a way, of course it's only the boys who will sing that way.
If we didn't—consciously or subconsciously, through popular music and television, through religious practice, in schools, in sport, in games, through clothing, through phrases like 'man up' or 'sit like a lady' or 'don't be such a girl' or 'grow a pair'—constantly pit girls against boys, we wouldn't have the problem of male flight from the choirs. If we didn't set children up as potential threats to each other in cases like this (my main issue with the CTCC), children wouldn't be threats to each other.
Please don't take it to heart - it's a fun discussion.A point I didn't address is the training. You state that it is down to the training that boys receive that makes them sound different - train the girls the same and you would get the same sound.
Well, there are many English cathedrals that do retain girl choristers and train them the same. York, for instance retains a girls and boys line. They do not sound the same to my ears. Of course the girls sing just as well as the boys (and some people say better) but the two have separate sounds. Wells Cathedral made the top 10 choirs in the world and has a mixed line. Again the mix of voices alongside the men produces a different quality to boys only.
So, is my preference of one over the other to do with my upbringing? That is harder to answer I suppose. Why does anybody like one type of music in preference to another? Hands up who likes pop. Rock. Country. Opera. R&B. Rap. Classical. Choral. We all have preferences but lets face it, most peoples is not to hear boys or girls singing classical music.
If I’ve got owt to say I says it, and if I’ve got owt to ask I asks it.
Mercy & Love
Mercy & Love
Thats what I think!JimmyRiddle wrote:Just to add to what's been discussed so far. The other point is.... Why?
Why change something that's working so well and has been for many years.
Libera are steamrolling on with great success in their popularity at present. They are probably over subscribed with interest in boys wanting to join the choir in and around South London. I've nothing against all girl groups, even mixed choirs. However on the same note if a group wants to remain same gender and has been hugely successful doing it this way, then they should be allowed the right to remain exactly as they are without fear of coming under pressure from the Politically Correct insanity of left wing crackpots.
Why change. Libera is an all boys choir, and also an extention of St Philip's boys! choir. I can't see it ever changing and I certainly do not see girls singing at St Philip's.
No disrespect to the fine female vocalist's, but as said, St Philip's is an all boys! choir.
Joe Snelling Quote: "It's odd cuz my voice is low but I do quite a lot of the top notes"
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"Music and rhythm find their way into the secret places of the soul"
- Plato
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"Music and rhythm find their way into the secret places of the soul"
- Plato
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liberavieve
No, no; you haven't scared me off. It is a fun discussion, and it's one that I enjoy having. But much as I enjoy talking about it, I've got a draft of this damned thing due in a few hours and have been near to the point of sweating blood (and coffee) over it for the past few days. It's ugly. And I don't have the mental capacity to give responses here the time they deserve.yorkie wrote:I'm getting the feeling our opinions have scared you off Shocked Please don't take it to heart - it's a fun discussion.
(Which says a lot for the state of my paper.)
But after I've handed this hydra over to my reader and am sleeping like a normal human being again, I can come up swinging with my Politically Correct Insanity and Left-Wing Crackpot theories on privilege, gaze on children, peer socialisation, etc. Never fear, Yorkie! I'm not so easily spooked as that, and I've plenty of queer pinko rubbish up my tie-dye sleeves.
Additionally, as perhaps will serve me better in this particular situation, I can make quite a good punch-bag, despite all indications.
At first, I agree, that is a very interesting topic. Gender-studies are very important & very exciting, too. By the way, I have a bit a problem with the correct using of the british words „does & did / doesn’t & didn’t“, so sorry if there are faults in my posting & feel free to correct me.
You’ve a very interesting scientist in UK, he made the scientific examinations for the tv-/dvd-series „Child Of Our Time“. I’ve forgot his name...This scientist made behaviour-experiments with three year old childrens. He established that, already at this age, childrens have an idea / an imagination what behaviour and which actions are „boy-like“ & „girl-like“. What actions are allowed to boys & which are allowed to girls. This early „trademark“ & influences mostly comes from parents, teachers – persons in the immediate area of the childrens.
For example parents who doesn’t allow their son to play with dolls ( or parents who punish their son if he play with dolls ), or parents who doesn’t allow their daughter / punish their daughter if she wants to play baseball. Sport clubs which don’t allow girls in their teams, or doesn’t allow girls to take part in matches / competitions. This facts are part in everyday life & this list could be continue as long as you like.
To concentrate my posting on girls & boys in choirs, in fact there are much more pure boys choirs than girls choirs on earth. And in fact the boys in popular boys choirs get – mostly – a very good musically education. This is really good for the boys, but the girls didn’t have access to all the boys choirs. Because of the fact that we’ll never see girls in Libera or in another popular boys choir we haven’t the possibility to imagine which effects to the group are the girls would have. Recently we had a gender-specific study about learning-abilities & school career of german childrens here. Some of the results are that, on average, german boys are more bad in school as german girls; on average, girls have more motivation & more discipline (to reach a learn-/study – aim/goal) as the boys; more german girls as german boys reach a School Diploma & german boys more frequently have behaviour – disturbings / -problems. If you can imagine, at the moment all germans are worried about german boys & now they supposed to become a „special treat“ ( like promoting / school help a. s. o.) opposite to girls :-p
Some years ago I went to a british college in London. I don’t think that there is so much difference between german & british children. So we can use this german study a bit for our topic here.
If Robert P. & his colleague’s don’t prefer boys opposite to girls or prefer girls opposite to boys as soloists I don’t see any problems. By the way, not every little girl has a naturally treble voice, the same with little boys. Both simply have childrens voices, mostly with the possibility to form it, to train it because of the fact that they’re young. Please guys, imagine sweet little girls with this beautiful Libera – white robes, a smile on their face, maybe with long blonde hair or two brown hair plaits (like Pippi Langstrumpf) & a sweat high voice! At the moment the Libera Fans are mainly masculine, girls in the group would lure feminin fans, too. Cause girls could identify themselves with the choir girls & with teenage girls in Libera the masculine fans have something to look after or to worship. It would also lure more younger masculine fans. They could sing woderful duet’s with a girl & a boy as soloists. Often little girls are a bit more trustful to people around them, without fear to show their emotions, could have a good effect to the Libera group & the fans. After so much years working with boys, Robert P. certainly would enjoy to work once with girls, would be a good add.
You’ve a very interesting scientist in UK, he made the scientific examinations for the tv-/dvd-series „Child Of Our Time“. I’ve forgot his name...This scientist made behaviour-experiments with three year old childrens. He established that, already at this age, childrens have an idea / an imagination what behaviour and which actions are „boy-like“ & „girl-like“. What actions are allowed to boys & which are allowed to girls. This early „trademark“ & influences mostly comes from parents, teachers – persons in the immediate area of the childrens.
For example parents who doesn’t allow their son to play with dolls ( or parents who punish their son if he play with dolls ), or parents who doesn’t allow their daughter / punish their daughter if she wants to play baseball. Sport clubs which don’t allow girls in their teams, or doesn’t allow girls to take part in matches / competitions. This facts are part in everyday life & this list could be continue as long as you like.
To concentrate my posting on girls & boys in choirs, in fact there are much more pure boys choirs than girls choirs on earth. And in fact the boys in popular boys choirs get – mostly – a very good musically education. This is really good for the boys, but the girls didn’t have access to all the boys choirs. Because of the fact that we’ll never see girls in Libera or in another popular boys choir we haven’t the possibility to imagine which effects to the group are the girls would have. Recently we had a gender-specific study about learning-abilities & school career of german childrens here. Some of the results are that, on average, german boys are more bad in school as german girls; on average, girls have more motivation & more discipline (to reach a learn-/study – aim/goal) as the boys; more german girls as german boys reach a School Diploma & german boys more frequently have behaviour – disturbings / -problems. If you can imagine, at the moment all germans are worried about german boys & now they supposed to become a „special treat“ ( like promoting / school help a. s. o.) opposite to girls :-p
Some years ago I went to a british college in London. I don’t think that there is so much difference between german & british children. So we can use this german study a bit for our topic here.
If Robert P. & his colleague’s don’t prefer boys opposite to girls or prefer girls opposite to boys as soloists I don’t see any problems. By the way, not every little girl has a naturally treble voice, the same with little boys. Both simply have childrens voices, mostly with the possibility to form it, to train it because of the fact that they’re young. Please guys, imagine sweet little girls with this beautiful Libera – white robes, a smile on their face, maybe with long blonde hair or two brown hair plaits (like Pippi Langstrumpf) & a sweat high voice! At the moment the Libera Fans are mainly masculine, girls in the group would lure feminin fans, too. Cause girls could identify themselves with the choir girls & with teenage girls in Libera the masculine fans have something to look after or to worship. It would also lure more younger masculine fans. They could sing woderful duet’s with a girl & a boy as soloists. Often little girls are a bit more trustful to people around them, without fear to show their emotions, could have a good effect to the Libera group & the fans. After so much years working with boys, Robert P. certainly would enjoy to work once with girls, would be a good add.
Sue's Youtube channel
http://www.youtube.com/user/LiberaFansGermany
http://www.youtube.com/user/LiberaFansGermany
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symphonica7
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_________________They could sing woderful duet’s with a girl & a boy as soloists. Often little girls are a bit more trustful to people around them, without fear to show their emotions, could have a good effect to the Libera group & the fans. After so much years working with boys, Robert P. certainly would enjoy to work once with girls, would be a good add.
Disagree..how about no...and....no that would be the END of Libera.
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BrightEyes
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Symphonica! My friend is that you in your new avatar? and is that your wonderful board of sliders and switches?symphonica7 wrote:_________________They could sing woderful duet’s with a girl & a boy as soloists. Often little girls are a bit more trustful to people around them, without fear to show their emotions, could have a good effect to the Libera group & the fans. After so much years working with boys, Robert P. certainly would enjoy to work once with girls, would be a good add.
Disagree..how about no...and....no that would be the END of Libera.
"How can the light that burned so brightly, Suddenly burn so pale?"
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Rebecca (:
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It all looks very confusingBrightEyes wrote:Symphonica! My friend is that you in your new avatar? and is that your wonderful board of sliders and switches?symphonica7 wrote:_________________They could sing woderful duet’s with a girl & a boy as soloists. Often little girls are a bit more trustful to people around them, without fear to show their emotions, could have a good effect to the Libera group & the fans. After so much years working with boys, Robert P. certainly would enjoy to work once with girls, would be a good add.
Disagree..how about no...and....no that would be the END of Libera.
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BrightEyes
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Agreed! What does that switch do... that one right there? And what happens if I turn this knob?...Rebecca (: wrote:It all looks very confusingBrightEyes wrote:Symphonica! My friend is that you in your new avatar? and is that your wonderful board of sliders and switches?symphonica7 wrote:_________________
Disagree..how about no...and....no that would be the END of Libera.
"How can the light that burned so brightly, Suddenly burn so pale?"
