Libera on Cebu beach :)

Talk about Libera Videos, Movies and Photos here.

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DrewE
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Post by DrewE »

JimmyRiddle wrote:There might be question surrounding how they came into the public domain, a link is shared, pictures are reposted, other people see and share them, and there you are… you’ve lost your copyright. Whether right or wrong, that’s the harsh reality of it. I would suggest if you really wanted to keep your pictures private, you wouldn’t upload and share them on the internet in the first place.
That's not how copyright works legally, not by a long shot. Photographs automatically (in all countries that are party to the Berne Convention, at least) gain the copyright of the photographer (not, interestingly, those photographed). This copyright can only pass into the public domain either by its expiration after several years or by the photographer's placing it in the public domain; and this latter option is not necessarily valid in all jurisdictions. The photographer is, of course, permitted to license or transfer his or her rights to others, as with most any sort of property.

Infringement of a copyright emphatically does not cause it to be dissolved; indeed, if that were the case, copyright would be useless and purposeless. Even if a work is widely infringed, the copyright holder can receive damages from infringers.

As a practical matter, of course, posting a photograph publicly on a web site makes it much harder to prevent infringement, even if it doesn't affect the moral rights of the creator. Under some cases, there may be various implied licenses to use the photograph, too; one rather obvious and noncontroversial example is when someone here posts one of their own pictures, which implicitly gives Libra Dreams and the forum users a license to reproduce it when viewing the post.
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TEB
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Post by TEB »

Ok, I need to step in here.
Please refrain from name calling and using certain descriptive words against each other.
If this subject can not be discussed rationally, it will not be discussed at all.
The other moderators, myself and Kevin will make what ever decision needs to be made.
Remember, Libera management does watch this board. Do not make them think less of us.
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carina_gino20
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Post by carina_gino20 »

Copyright cannot be lost even though there's massive infringement. Only if you have agreed to sell it or you die. In which case, it's quite a number of years after you die before the copyright expires. Of course 'parts' of it can be licensed by the owner.

I think posting the pictures on this thread can still be classified as 'fair use' as long as nobody goes claiming that it's theirs. Maybe for those that are hosted in the albums, a simple solution would be to contact the owners to ask for their permission. Otherwise, some people might think that because they are hosted in Libera Dreams, that Libera Dreams owns the pics. Not everybody bothers to ask for permission but I think since it wouldn't really be much of a trouble to contact the original owner, then I think the mods should just do it and be done with it so we don't have to worry about that anymore.

The only worry here is that these pictures come from two different sources. One of them, John Borra, posted a public link to the album, so it probably shouldn't be a problem if you contact him for permission. The other owner might be less willing though.
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JoelinMkt
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Post by JoelinMkt »

Forgive me for ignorance or for being downright oblivious.

Are we discussing the right to ownership of the pictures or the right of the boys to privacy during their non-public time? I think that would boil down to the question: At what point is it unacceptable for us to share pictures of the boys on this forum whether or not the boys consented to being photographed?

I am guessing that the beach pictures are the ones that are the hot topic. The pictures at Intramuros (the ones on the wall) were taken while they were touring. The pictures at the Shangri-la complex (pool or beach) were private moments where they were enjoying not just the facilities of the hotel but something they do not get while in England - the tropical climate. That should have been their down time. (Should they come back to the Philippines, St. Philips would do well to issue them rash guards with hoods... but I digress.)


Perhaps we should ask our moderators for guidance on what would be acceptable then abide by what ever standard it is they determine appropriate.

Perhaps we should set minimum standards

When is sharing pictures of the boys while not garbed in their long sleeved blue shirts, robes or hoods acceptable?

Is reposting the FB profile pictures they make public acceptable (Someone has done this on another site, I found it an intrusion but others may not think so.)

Is reposting private personal pictures acceptable (This is definitely unacceptable in my opinion.)

I enjoy seeing pictures of the group in any setting but am willing to abide by what ever rules the moderators decide on.
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RiseInGlory
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Post by RiseInGlory »

JoelinMkt has hit the nail right on the head. There are two separate problems here: the copyright problem and the privacy problem. To get copyright permission for the pictures we need only ask the photographer. But that has nothing to do with the privacy issue. Getting copyright permission from the photographer has nothing to do with whether we're invading Libera members' privacy by posting potentially private pictures.


In response to JoelinMkt's suggestions as to community standards, I agree that:

* posting private personal pictures is definitely unacceptable
* posting FB pictures unrelated to the group's activity is probably unacceptable (those pictures are posted for the sake of the person's friends, not strangers)
* posting pictures of the group acting as a group, but away from official activities, such as what's happening here --- eh, I think this is for the community to discuss and decide upon.

again this is not purely a copyright issue. there's also a separate issue of privacy. And getting copyright permission from the photographer, though of course necessary and laudable, doesn't solve the privacy issue.
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Post by dani »

I am totally confused here , how are they private pictures ?

Quite clearly this are promotionall images as thats why the guy who took them wrote a report on the group and posted the photos .


Private pictures are just that private , which would be personal pictures like there facebook photos. These are not personal to any of the boys at all.


And why would you need copyright to them unless you are planning to use them for personal use ? all you are doing is sticking them on a website. You are not planning to use them in an ad or anything.
RiseInGlory
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Post by RiseInGlory »

dani:

first, about privacy:
as JoelinMkt says, the pictures come from two separate sources. One set of pictures are Libera on tour while a couple of other pictures are them having personal down time on the beach. Unless I'm mistaken about this, the guy who wrote the report is the origin of the first set of pictures only. I have no idea how the second set came out.

second, about copyright:
you don't have to use the pictures in an ad to infringe copyright. Technically, *any* kind of copying or display is an infringement, barring some exceptions. So every time anyone sets a Libera music track to a YouTube video, they're infringing the copyright in the music. Of course, since such YouTube videos are free publicity for Libera, it makes no sense for Libera to go after them, but Libera certainly has the *right* to if they choose to do so.


Personally, I think we should ask Libera management about the privacy issue. Asking the photographer is well and good but the photographer's copyright has nothing to do with Libera's privacy rights.
dani
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Post by dani »

RiseInGlory wrote:dani:

first, about privacy:
as JoelinMkt says, the pictures come from two separate sources. One set of pictures are Libera on tour while a couple of other pictures are them having personal down time on the beach. Unless I'm mistaken about this, the guy who wrote the report is the origin of the first set of pictures only. I have no idea how the second set came out.

second, about copyright:
you don't have to use the pictures in an ad to infringe copyright. Technically, *any* kind of copying or display is an infringement, barring some exceptions. So every time anyone sets a Libera music track to a YouTube video, they're infringing the copyright in the music. Of course, since such YouTube videos are free publicity for Libera, it makes no sense for Libera to go after them, but Libera certainly has the *right* to if they choose to do so.


Personally, I think we should ask Libera management about the privacy issue. Asking the photographer is well and good but the photographer's copyright has nothing to do with Libera's privacy rights.
Ah i get you i just assumed all the photos came from the same souce. I didnt know the beach pictures was different.
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carina_gino20
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Post by carina_gino20 »

RiseinGlory is correct. The beach pictures are more of an issue because of the source. Maybe we can all agree that if it's a personal picture from/of one of the boys from their social networking pages that just happened to be viewable but was in no way 'offered' or 'volunteered' to be splashed all over the internets, we should leave it alone.

The first set posted is fair game, I think, since the author had kindly posted the link to the album. Since the pics were uploaded to the gallery, we should acknowledge who they come from. Kevin has been very careful with this in the past so I think he won't mind asking the owner for permission to post the pics. If it's just the normal posting that we do, then I think a link back to the owner is sufficient enough.
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fan_de_LoK
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Post by fan_de_LoK »

I have read all the discussion here and this have changed my point of view.

As the previous messages are saying, I think that the obviously private photos (the beach ones) should not have been posted in public, and should now be removed.
I have removed the one i had posted on the french forum, and removed the little one I had posted here in the first message.
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Post by dearmadine »

I think most people will agree that the obviously private pictures should not be posted in public.

I just have something to mention in regards to the above statement. I've been thinking whether to bring it up here or not because it's not about what's going on here. However, I feel that the Libera fan community is rather small and information circulates fast. And I believe this is a rather serious issue in regards to privacy and I just cannot close my eyes and pretend nothing happened.

About three days ago, I saw a bunch of Facebook profile pictures of the Libera boys (and Ben Crawley) posted on another Libera fan site. It was a great shock for me because it seemed like an obvious invasion of privacy. I mean, I will freak out if some total stranger posts my Facebook profile picture somewhere else without me even knowing!

I have emailed the person to remove those pictures but I think she decided to ignore my email. The pictures are still up and it's a matter of time the entire Libera fan community will see those pictures and I can guarantee that it would only encourage some people to check on the boys' Facebook accounts and try to add them and send messages to them and whatever. I also have sent an email to the admin on that site, but he/she also hasn't gotten back to me yet.

This forum is very well managed in terms of protecting Libera boys' privacy and everyone is always careful. Unfortunately, the forum rules here don't apply in other Libera website(s) and some people seem to take privacy issue less seriously. I'm very concerned and worried about the current situation and I wanna hear what you guys think.
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chix
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Post by chix »

I have saw the pictures dearmadine was saying and I was shocked too. I have already contacted the admin of the other site and requested the Facebook profile pictures to be taken down.
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JimmyRiddle
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Post by JimmyRiddle »

I have not see any private facebook pictures, and I totally agree that these should not be made available for public viewing. Maybe the boys need to think very carefully over which invitations they accept as friends on their social network sites. Then again, even a friend you think you knew well, could have posted that picture on their social site, and somebody else could have copied it and reposted it elsewhere. The whole doctrine of the 'internet' is built around 'sharing and connecting', and what might have innocently started out as a few transfers between friends, could suddenly find itself popping up in places you never intended it to appear.

I have read the posts made subsequent to my last entry and they have all made interesting reading with regards to the Copyright and Privacy

I have throughout my posts made a clear demarcation at those pictures which I personally feel are suitable for general viewing, and those which aren't. I posted the set of pictures I had previously seen, in a direct response to somebody asking about them.

Maybe all pictures should be uploaded to a private place for pre-moderation, were a select committee can come to a conclusion about their suitability.
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Post by dearmadine »

JimmyRiddle wrote:Maybe the boys need to think very carefully over which invitations they accept as friends on their social network sites.
I believe the boys are smart enough to not add anyone they don't know. But the thing is, Facebook profile pages DO show profile pictures on name-search level, so anyone who simply types their names on search box can basically see their profile pictures without even adding or friend requesting them. I found it a bit scary because there is no way to find out who is viewing the page.
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JoelinMkt
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Post by JoelinMkt »

I find re-distributing FB profile pics without permission of the owner rather unethical.

Of the nine grabbed profile pics, one is of Flynn (who is ten) and another of Stefan (who is eleven). Both of them would be covered by some manner of children's online privacy protection laws. Re-distributing their profile pictures without parental release or consent may actually be unlawful.
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