Other Choirs, Singers, Musicians that you like

[j8000]

I also made it to the Choir of Westminster Abbey's St John Passion last night. It was a bit of a last minute purchase, which meant taking one of the unreserved aisle seats. I managed to get a seat just forward of the soloists, so I could hear them properly, but with direct line of sight/sound to about 1/2 of the choir. I've sat further up before, but then the soloists are singing away from you which is no good for a piece were most of it is recitatives or arias. But pretty much anywhere you sit in the aisle you are going to have a massive pillar blocking some part of the view!

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2022-04-12 - Westminster Abbey - St John Passion (1).jpg

Now, as much as I love CVMS, who sang the St John Passion excellently 3 weeks ago, the Choir of Westminster Abbey were once again a step above, with an absolutely wonderful sound and fantastic soloists. (including two treble arias and a third treble as Ancilla)

I was at their Monteverdi Vespers concert last night, and as usual their soloists were very impressive. It can be a bit of a challenge securing a good seat there as all the centre front ones seem to go to friends, family and colleagues before general sale is opened. I've never tried gambling with an aisle one but it seems you got a decent spot.

James O'Donnell is leaving at the end of the year so I hope his successor continues such concerts with soloists from the choir.

[Celt]

I was at their Monteverdi Vespers concert last night, and as usual their soloists were very impressive. It can be a bit of a challenge securing a good seat there as all the centre front ones seem to go to friends, family and colleagues before general sale is opened. I've never tried gambling with an aisle one but it seems you got a decent spot.

James O'Donnell is leaving at the end of the year so I hope his successor continues such concerts with soloists from the choir.

Ahh, nice! Yes, they have some very good soloists right now. I didn't go to that one last night basically because I left it way too late to get a decent seat and I didn't fancy paying £22 to see a pillar... as the aisle were allocated seating for this one, and the seating plan is not accurate...

Yeah, I saw the announcement about James O'Donnell, such a shame as he has done a fantastic job. I don't think I have ever been disappointed by anything of theirs I have attended (besides the view!)

Edit: I've only ever managed one front row at Westminster Abbey, for Haydn's Creation in 2018 and I have no idea how I managed it as usually, as you say, the good ones seem to have been sold already.

[Luckdragon]

Trinity Boys Choir, another fine choir from Croydon, will be taking their 9 best trebles on a tour of Germany and Luxembourg over the next couple of weeks:

http://www.trinityboyschoir.co.uk/events/

[Celt]

Trinity Boys Choir, another fine choir from Croydon, will be taking their 9 best trebles on a tour of Germany and Luxembourg over the next couple of weeks:

http://www.trinityboyschoir.co.uk/events/

Posted about it a page back, check out the video of one of the trebles who should be part of the tour, two and a half years older but still a treble and a fantastic voice.

Here's a photo of them from their pre-tour concert 2 weeks ago.

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2022-05-06 - Trinity Boys Choir (5).jpg (1.62 MiB) Viewed 3937 times

2022-05-06 - Trinity Boys Choir (5).jpg (1.62 MiB) Viewed 3937 times

[Luckdragon]

Posted about it a page back, check out the video of one of the trebles who should be part of the tour, two and a half years older but still a treble and a fantastic voice.

Oops. Saw it on FB. Forgot to check.

Incredible longevity. He must be amazing now. The head chorister who sang the solo in Dirge was terrific, too.

[Celt]

Posted about it a page back, check out the video of one of the trebles who should be part of the tour, two and a half years older but still a treble and a fantastic voice.

Oops. Saw it on FB. Forgot to check.

Incredible longevity. He must be amazing now. The head chorister who sang the solo in Dirge was terrific, too.

He is 14 now apparently, but his brother, Freddie, who was also an exceptional treble and who also sang in several operas, was a treble until he was 15.

[Surpinto]

Thanks for the links and photos, Celt. I saw Canterbury Cathedral choir on their tour to the US in 2018 and they were excellent. New College Choir, when I saw them on their 2019 tour, has gone down as one of my favorite non-Libera concerts of all time. Their setlist and singing was excellent, and I had a seat in something like the 2nd row.

[Luckdragon]

A video production of "Solstice" from 2020, which is what Trinity's current NINE tour is called.

[Surpinto]

Strangely, in his recent interview, Sam seemed a little bit down on performing in the UK where the abundance of boy choirs makes Libera far less appreciated than they are abroad. It appears there is some financial uncertainty even when the performance is just a bus ride away.

There is a lot of competition over here, Cathedral Choirs, Choirs of the Chapel Royal, Schola Cantorums, Abbey Choirs, university college chapel choirs... Pretty much anywhere in the country you have a good quality choir, with a treble top line, within easy reach.

Take Ely for example, they have the Cathedral Boys choir and Cathedral Girls choir, both of which have a good sound but both are a stone's throw from probably the most famous UK choir, King's College Cambridge.

As an alternative to Libera tomorrow, Guildford Cathedral Choir give a concert conducted by John Rutter (which I would definitely have gone to if not for Libera), Peterborough Cathedral Choir have a Spring Concert, and Derby Cathedral Choir have a Platinum Jubilee service... and those are just the three I know about.

Yeah, it's not quite like that over here in the good old USA . We have some decent choirs but they are mostly community-based choirs which rehearse far less than their UK equivalents. Further, the backrow is usually older boys whose voices have broken but whose singing quality - in part resulting from the voice settling after it changes - is not yet up to producing the sounds necessary for singing beautifully. Many such choirs resort to kitschy songs or dance moves to sort of make up for the lack of time and talent. To be sure that is not an attack as many such choirs rather explicitly have as their core mission character building and other non-musical values which singing in a choir offers to its members; and I certainly find no fault in them for that!

Anyone who follows my Instagram or Twitter (links in my signature ) can see that I was recently in Boston, Massachusetts for a small vacation and was able to hear the St Paul's Harvard Square choir of men and boys both in concert and for a service. They sang very well; although the trebles lacked power at certain key times. Not to mention my second favorite choir after Libera: The Saint Thomas Choir of Men and Boys in New York City. I have heard them sing countless services now and they are excellent.

Being that choral singing in US does not come with the prestige and admission to elite schools as it does in many cases in the UK, I think that choir directors here, even of so-called elite choirs like Saint Thomas, are unable to be as selective as their colleagues on the other side of the pond. So while the two choirs I mention sound really good much of the time, exceptional soloists are going to emerge far less frequently in that sort of environment. But even more importantly, these schools are not part of larger institutions (larger schools, cathedrals, etc) which can in effect subsidize additional music staff.

When Daniel Hyde, the current director of King’s College, was music director at Saint Thomas he would often have a duo or a trio of boys do a solo part. It actually worked really well especially in that large church where the quieter voice of a young treble may not be distinctly heard. The current director seems to really want to develop individual soloists, but very few of them seem to have the vocal power so as to be particularly audible at times.

You can forget using extensive trouble soloists during a concert as well, as both choirs will bring in an outside female soprano for most of the demanding solo parts. Nothing wrong with that in itself, and I have seen Saint Thomas try and use the trebles for solos during concerts, but they just haven't been at the same level as what I have heard from CVMS or other UK choirs that have released concert footage where treble solos are featured. I'm not really sure why that is as a boarding school type institution like Saint Thomas ought to be able to produce a few good soloists. Any thoughts you guys?

[Celt]

Thanks for the links and photos, Celt. I saw Canterbury Cathedral choir on their tour to the US in 2018 and they were excellent. New College Choir, when I saw them on their 2019 tour, has gone down as one of my favorite non-Libera concerts of all time. Their setlist and singing was excellent, and I had a seat in something like the 2nd row.

I actually managed to see both of those choirs on the same day in 2019! One of those rare little confluences. Lunchtime choristers only concert in the New College Chapel and then choristers only summer concert in Canterbury Cathedral in the evening.

I'm fairly certain you would have heard Edward Bennett from New College who was a great treble, he sang one of the Miserere Mei solos in the Cathedral Choristers of Britain concert in the vast Liverpool Cathedral that year, the other half sung by Archie White of Magdalen https://www.forum.libera-dreams.com/vie ... php?t=3648, they apparently went to school together but ended up in different Oxford choirs.

As for Canterbury, in 2018 you would probably have had Frederick Butler in there, who was a 2018 Young Chorister of the Year finalist...

Both coincidentally 3 from the left in the chorister line ups here...

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[Surpinto]

Cool! I recognize them both I think.

New College did the Miserere and it was absolutely glorious! They also sang the "Sicut Cervus" so well it may never be bettered in a live performance.

King's was in New York just a few days later actually and they sounded flawless as usual.

[Celt]

Yeah, it's not quite like that over here in the good old USA . We have some decent choirs but they are mostly community-based choirs which rehearse far less than their UK equivalents. Further, the backrow is usually older boys whose voices have broken but whose singing quality - in part resulting from the voice settling after it changes - is not yet up to producing the sounds necessary for singing beautifully. Many such choirs resort to kitschy songs or dance moves to sort of make up for the lack of time and talent. To be sure that is not an attack as many such choirs rather explicitly have as their core mission character building and other non-musical values which singing in a choir offers to its members; and I certainly find no fault in them for that!

Anyone who follows my Instagram or Twitter (links in my signature ) can see that I was recently in Boston, Massachusetts for a small vacation and was able to hear the St Paul's Harvard Square choir of men and boys both in concert and for a service. They sang very well; although the trebles lacked power at certain key times. Not to mention my second favorite choir after Libera: The Saint Thomas Choir of Men and Boys in New York City. I have heard them sing countless services now and they are excellent.

Being that choral singing in US does not come with the prestige and admission to elite schools as it does in many cases in the UK, I think that choir directors here, even of so-called elite choirs like Saint Thomas, are unable to be as selective as their colleagues on the other side of the pond. So while the two choirs I mention sound really good much of the time, exceptional soloists are going to emerge far less frequently in that sort of environment. But even more importantly, these schools are not part of larger institutions (larger schools, cathedrals, etc) which can in effect subsidize additional music staff.

When Daniel Hyde, the current director of King’s College, was music director at Saint Thomas he would often have a duo or a trio of boys do a solo part. It actually worked really well especially in that large church where the quieter voice of a young treble may not be distinctly heard. The current director seems to really want to develop individual soloists, but very few of them seem to have the vocal power so as to be particularly audible at times.

You can forget using extensive trouble soloists during a concert as well, as both choirs will bring in an outside female soprano for most of the demanding solo parts. Nothing wrong with that in itself, and I have seen Saint Thomas try and use the trebles for solos during concerts, but they just haven't been at the same level as what I have heard from CVMS or other UK choirs that have released concert footage where treble solos are featured. I'm not really sure why that is as a boarding school type institution like Saint Thomas ought to be able to produce a few good soloists. Any thoughts you guys?

I've seen videos of the Saint Thomas Choir of Men and Boys and St Paul's Harvard Square and have been impressed by both. But I've never really felt that they have been up to the standards of the top UK choirs.

There is definitely an element of selection on musical criteria that almost certainly makes the difference. That goes for choirs around the world. One of my favourite foreign choirs is the Københavns Drengekor in Denmark. I was talking to a parent there once and she told me the school from which they select the choristers in massively oversubscribed which allows them some degree of selection. However, I think there are a far larger number of schools that do that in the UK, and many of the cathedrals etc. have associated schools. CVMS is fairly unique in that partly through it's own reputation, but perhaps also because of its close partnership with this forums focus choir, they manage to attract talented singers to their fold without the backing of a large institution.

For choirs linked to places like Westminster Abbey or St Paul's Cathedral, there is obviously huge prestige attached to being a chorister there which naturally would attract talent.

I was sat in SJSS in December listening to CVMS sing Ceremony of Carols, in the same venue as I'd heard Libera. But as good as they were Westminster Abbey, only 400m away, had been a cut above. In better days, Westminster Cathedral, only about 800m away, were also quite exceptional.

But it does also very much depend on the director, as I've posted about before, the London Oratory Schola Cantorum is a very similar choir and institution to CVMS, but the director's music choice is just so dull, nor did he seem to encourage solos as much. Very much hoping the new Westminster Abbey director continues to give opportunities for treble solos to the boys.

[Celt]

King's was in New York just a few days later actually and they sounded flawless as usual.

The first time I saw King's was in the Royal Albert Hall for a large Xmas concert and they were just drowned out by everyone else. As a result I was not very impressed. Heard them a couple of years later in Cadogan Hall singing a cappella or with piano/organ accompaniment and they were sublime!!

[Luckdragon]

I'm not really sure why that is as a boarding school type institution like Saint Thomas ought to be able to produce a few good soloists. Any thoughts you guys?

I agree with Celt. A lot of it is the director's philosophy.

I listen to every St. Thomas evensong. I think they're magnificent at what they do: singing the Anglican Church's standard choral service as a choir. Within that context, their trebles are very good -- maybe the best in the USA, such as it is. Solos are just not an emphasis for them.

There may be better man-boy evensongs in the UK, but I have yet to find one that provides such a high-quality stream. Not even close.

Here's their evensong from last night if you want to see what I mean:

[Celt]

The pandemic brought many evensong streams online, but some of them did look like they had been filmed on a VHS camcorder and flown to YT by carrier pigeon...

Here is a nice one from Christ Church Cathedral Oxford, that includes the Choir of the Chapel Royal Hampton Court.



Not to be confused by the Choir of the Chapel Royal (which sings at St James' Palace in central London.)



Or the Choir of St George's Windsor.



I've actually never heard the one at St James' Palace but I have heard both the others in concert and was stunned by the high quality.

Well done Your Majesty.

The above really does demonstrates just how many high quality choirs are in the UK, when you can put three together just for some small Royal Chapels! But again I suppose the prestige of singing for them attracts the talent.

A few years ago for instance the Hampton Court choir had a chorister who was also an actor and did a run as Charlie in the big west end production of Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. I guess if you can sing to 2,000 people several times a week you are good enough to sing to the Royal Family in an obscure little chapel.