Auto tune?

[alpha]

Hi, I'm kind of new here, so please don't shoot me down in flames for this..... I was just wondering???

It occurred to me the other night at my local pub, during a open mic / jam night where the house PA has an auto tune system that corrects slight inaccuracies with vocal singing and shifts the pitch to the correct note....

... do you think Libera use that kind of technology during concerts / recordings????

There is a post on another thread that was posed by a string player that had performed with the choir who mentioned lots of electronic trickery in the production.... was this just a reference to the synthesisers - samplers - sequencers that Rob Prizeman uses, or perhaps Auto Tune??????

[catherine]

umm I don't think so. In case you didn't know : during a concert in Belfast (autumn tour 2012), Tom DL's voice went higher by accident, which you can read on their official blog here.
It wouldn't happen if Libera use the "auto-tune", would it?
I think the Libera boys are very talented, that's all. But I'm also a newbie here and am not an expert on these kind of things, so.. let's just wait and see what the others have to say

[Yorkie]

Well, I'm no musician so I can only offer an opinion without any real knowledge in this area.

I honestly don't think they use auto-tune. I have heard many mistakes at concerts so my belief is that they are singing live and without help. Don't take that as a criticism - no live performance by any singer is ever perfect and that is part of what makes being there for a live show a unique performance. If you want perfection listen to the CD.

Auto-tune leaves a distinct and recognisable signature on a recording and I don't think I've ever heard it on one of their records. To be honest there is no need for it if you have the time to record multiple takes and can edit together various recordings to make one perfect take. Only artists who have no ability to sing or who actually want the quirky sound that auto-tune adds would need to use it when recording.

Libera certainly have a lot of electronic equipment at concerts and I guess it would be possible for them to use it. I don't know what the string player meant but there are far more innocent explanations. They have a lot of different mics and earpieces. They have speakers and monitors. They certainly do use backing tracks and they add reverb/echo to their performances. A Libera concert is a mixture of live singing, live playing of musical instruments and keyboards, and pre-recorded sound affects/backing tracks (although I have been present many times when the sound system has been set up during the day and whilst I have heard the backing tracks played it there has never been any vocals on it).

[Amie_Hill]

Here's the quote from the string player:

"During the [Singapore] concert, from earpieces we all listened to the pre-recorded tracks (as mentioned above), plus "clicks" (tempo guidance). That's why they could keep their tempo exactly the same as their tempo on CD recordings. And that's why they could start singing a song on-pitch (e.g. "Glory To Thee"), start a song altogether (e.g. "Dies Irae"), and finish a long-note ending altogether with the accompaniments (e.g. "How Shall I Sing"). No verbal instructions came from the earpieces during the concert. Utilizing the earpieces, we could play/sing properly without seeing Robert at all."

There's no mention of autotune, and there are comments from audience members about singers occasionally going off pitch. The earphone tracks seem to serve only to indicate time and tempo, and any pre-recorded tracks are also audible. This makes sense when the boys often can't see the director, and have to come in at the correct time and on pitch.

[JimmyRiddle]

Yes good point well made Amie and Yorkie

I agree when you attend a live concert you would know from the little 'minor' glitches and rare mis-timings that the libera boys are singing 'live' and without any auto-tune assistance. I'm no expert far from it, but maybe the guys who sit at the mixers aim to get the balancing and distrubution right but I don't believe they dramatically change the vocals before they come out of the speakers. Would they have time?

What irritates me a little and this is not directed to the original poster but more at the odd comments you see on YouTube etc.. that if something sounds too good to be true, people will be quick to cast aspersions and call it fake.

I'm not saying the professionally produced studio videos are achieved in one-take and untouched by post production enhancement but the genuine live performances you can find of libera appear to be assisted only with amplification from the mic alone and nothing else.

Also since Libera involved their mini house band as such with live strings/drum/keyboard/percussion etc.. the background instrumentals during concerts have not seemed as overbearing and thus provided overall a more enjoyable & authentic listening experience.

[LuxVenit]

I agree with the other posters here, so I won't repeat what they've said but will only add my experience...

I've only heard Libera perform live once (and even though I missed about 4 or 5 songs I still could have died happy afterward) and can attest to the fact that while they often seem "too good to be true" there are those little miscues that do happen. It doesn't happen very often, but I noticed during a couple songs that a soloist would aim a bit high and have to correct himself slightly, but nowhere near enough to make people notice (unless they were absolutely mesmerized or obsessed like I was). Also, you can tell when one of the boys has a bit of a cold or allergies or something and it "throws" him off a little too. Again, these boys are so good at what they do and so used to doing it that unless you have listened to the song a lot or have been to 22,349 concerts like some of the folks here have you will barely notice it, if at all.

[Yorkie]

Also since Libera involved their mini house band as such with live strings/drum/keyboard/percussion etc.. the background instrumentals during concerts have not seemed as overbearing and thus provided overall a more enjoyable & authentic listening experience.

I've said it before Jimmy but I feel so strongly about it I'm happy to repeat it ad nauseam.......

The inclusion of the string quartet, percussionist and an extra keyboard or two has really lifted the live concerts to the next level. I'm sure it adds a huge amount of extra work and expense but it really does pay off. If I have one gripe about the Christmas CD it is that it consists of too much electronic instrumentation and I would have really liked to get some real ones in there.

Now if we can just get the organ intro and segue back in to Mysterium (a la Chester) and some lit torches for Voca Me I'm a happy man!

[alpha]

Thanks for all the comments above re-auto tune. It appears it's use is unlikely in live events and probably unnecessary in the studio. I do like the bit about when "it looks too good to be true".... we have a young lady in the marching band, only 12 years old and she is so well rehearsed it is unbelievable what she is capable of. 12 mins of music (off by heart) with over 150 different drill movements all performed flawlessly under amazing pressure. Then a hamburger, ice cream, mars bar and a can of Coke ... you then realise she is just a kid!!!

I'm glad its not just me with the Christmas CD, I too think at times the electronics are way too high in the mix and almost swamp the voices out. I love the use of the modern electronics and it is partly that which make Libera very different to traditional Cathedral choirs, but Mr Sound engineer - just be careful we don't lose the voices.

[Lumi]

It appears it's use is unlikely in live events and probably unnecessary in the studio.

Well, I am no professional, but a certain level of pitch correction is pretty much the standard nowadays in any music production. It is not "auto-tune" they way most people know it, but it's used to achieve the flawless pitch expected from studio recordings. Its use does not indicate whether the singer cannot sing in pitch or not, either. But from the way their recordings sound, my guess is that Libera use it as well.

The aspect of Libera albums that seems to spark more debate is their otherwise very heavily produced sound: in all of their recent albums, but especially New Dawn and The Christmas Album. A friend of mine, whom I tried to introduce to Libera, referred to it as the "washing machine" – there is quite a bit of certain "glimmer" added around the voices and so on. The ones of us who've heard Libera live or even just heard recordings of live performances will have no doubt of the Libera boys' ability to use their voices, but the fact is that nowadays anyone can be made sound good on a recording if produced heavily enough, and thus when heavy editing is done on a recording it will inevitably raise questions about the singers' real ability. Ironically, at the same time it is pretty much a requirement for any music to be accepted by the mainstream audience...

While personally I'm quite used to the way Libera's recent albums sound, I still prefer the sound they have live... The voices just sound so much more natural, and thus more justice is done to the music as well. I can tell you that I was terrified before my first concert – I worried that I had higher expectations than others might, and there was just no way they would sound as good live as on their recordings. Well, they didn't. They sounded even better.

As others have commented, it is quite evident there is no pitch correction of any kind used in their concerts. It seems I am bothered much, much more by pitch problems than others, but if you ask me anyway, in the two concerts that I've had the pleasure attending there have (in some songs) been much more than minor pitch issues – typically with the more difficult descant parts when nerves kick in for the soloists. But I am not saying that as criticism, since it takes either a very natural ear for pitch or a lot of training combined with a very solid singing technique for that not to happen under pressure. As the soloists get older and more experienced they will sound spectacular.
The group as a whole stay wonderfully well in pitch, and in concerts there is a very good balance between the experienced soloists, then some very young ones who completely take you by surprise with their ability and also some rising stars that just need a bit more experience to overcome their nerves. And for me that "mix" actually an important part of the concert experience – at least I always kind of feel nervous for the soloists as though it was me who had to sing in front of the audience.

//Well, looks like I wrote quite a bit more than I was planning to.

[LuxVenit]

It appears it's use is unlikely in live events and probably unnecessary in the studio.

Well, I am no professional, but a certain level of pitch correction is pretty much the standard nowadays in any music production. It is not "auto-tune" they way most people know it, but it's used to achieve the flawless pitch expected from studio recordings. Its use does not indicate whether the singer cannot sing in pitch or not, either. But from the way their recordings sound, my guess is that Libera use it as well.

Right, and for a studio recording for a CD I would imagine you'd WANT to have the most perfect recording you could, otherwise people wouldn't buy it. Obviously if you buy an album, go to listen to it, and hear parts of it that are pitchy then your assessment of the artist goes down. I do highly doubt that Libera needs much polishing even for a studio recording! Repetition of a piece of music makes for less mistakes, but little off-pitch oopses often are unavoidable.

I had another thought after I posted my original response to this thread, so please forgive me if it seems like I'm trying to hammer it home again - I'm really not! The Libera boys often sing in church services, where they don't get to use those fancy earpieces with the clicks and tempo cues, so I would imagine that this helps with their concert performances as well. It becomes natural to anticipate your particular cue or starting note, you know what I mean? Not saying that it is any less difficult, but practice makes perfect, and Libera simply is.

The group as a whole stay wonderfully well in pitch, and in concerts there is a very good balance between the experienced soloists, then some very young ones who completely take you by surprise with their ability and also some rising stars that just need a bit more experience to overcome their nerves. And for me that "mix" actually an important part of the concert experience – at least I always kind of feel nervous for the soloists as though it was me who had to sing in front of the audience.

Absolutely agree, 100% Lumi. I'm amazed at the young ones' ability to rise up to take the places of their predecessors, and I'm nervous for all the soloists as well! Even ones who have had those pitchy moments in past performances can come back and nail it the next time, where I'd probably go to pieces.

[maartendas]

The group as a whole stay wonderfully well in pitch, and in concerts there is a very good balance between the experienced soloists, then some very young ones who completely take you by surprise with their ability and also some rising stars that just need a bit more experience to overcome their nerves. And for me that "mix" actually an important part of the concert experience – at least I always kind of feel nervous for the soloists as though it was me who had to sing in front of the audience.

Absolutely agree, 100% Lumi. I'm amazed at the young ones' ability to rise up to take the places of their predecessors, and I'm nervous for all the soloists as well! Even ones who have had those pitchy moments in past performances can come back and nail it the next time, where I'd probably go to pieces.

On a side note: please do remember that singing is also fun There will be nerves but sometimes (I expect) a boy will feel more excited than nervous for a solo. We as fans tend to 'judge' performances more than the boys will, I think, especially the younger boys.

[alpha]

Remember also that younger children have fewer inhibitions, fear and nerves are things of post adolescence.

[Lumi]

Remember also that younger children have fewer inhibitions, fear and nerves are things of post adolescence.

This is something I have been thinking as well... However, in the sense that it seems it is often the very young ones who (apart from experienced soloists) seem to be the least nervous even though they might be doing their very first solos.

I don't think, though, that you can say nerves are mostly "things of post adolescence" – considering how many kids are quite nervous performing: not just in Libera, but in general as well. If I understood correctly what you said... But it's no doubt much easier to get used to performing at a young age.

[LuxVenit]

Very true - about singing being fun and how we as fans tend to "judge" performances more than the boys do. Interesting perspective that you've brought up, and it must just be my personality type that would have not thought about the fun part of it. I'm one of those types who, if my performance isn't absolutely flawless, feels that I've failed even if people tell me I've done an awesome job.

Libera soloists have that quality where they can stand and deliver no matter what they're feeling though, whether nerves OR excitement, and to know that it IS fun for them just makes it more fun for the fans as well. I still smile when I think of seeing Kavana sing, and watching him really get into it. If he wasn't having fun then I'll eat my computer desk!

[TullyBascombe]

Wouldn't using a program to alter a singer's pitch noticeably change the character of the voice?