Copenhagen Royal Chapel Choir - Video

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Jay_S
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Copenhagen Royal Chapel Choir - Video

Post by Jay_S »

This is a video made by a Danish film maker named Andreas Koefoed about the end of a boy's career as a treble in a choir. I feel sad thinking about how the lives of the boys in Libera change when they no longer sing with the group.

This was posted about 5 years ago. I apologize if this has already been covered.

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Re: Copenhagen Royal Chapel Choir - Video

Post by kinda_k00l »

Just finished watching it. It really is a big deal for young boys, especially for introvert ones. The part about 'identity' mentioned in the video is cannot explain it in any better way(s). Not joining the choir anymore really is a loss of a part of one's identity. As some articles about boys choir have stated (I don't remember which one): they're like angels flying in the sky & suddenly realize that their wings do not work anymore - a rather painful thing. :|

But it's also not that harsh. I mean, it does happen suddenly, but the voice does not change to a new range immediately - consider that as a preparation state. Things may take time to get used to, and that's all. However, well, it would be a lie if I say I don't get a little bit upset when the it occurs to Libera boys. :roll:

I don't know if the part where they have to rest their voices for a couple of years until it has settled down with their new ranges is true. Yes, I agree they should not strain their voices too much for the high notes, but I don't see anything wrong with continue singing in that period (some of the Libera boys do keep singing during their voicebreak). :?

{My case is also the same - puberty came early, my voice started to break when I was 11 (on the second half of that year) and I still sang like I had always do, uptil now. My speaking voice is quite high & somewhat sqeaky (is that a result of continuing singing when my voice was breaking?) but my singing voice is doing fine (at least that's what I think). I did get upset about it at first, but that feeling didn't last long enough for me to even remember exactly how I feel at that time (I had not been in a boys choir back then so it was not that significant to me, but I did really love singing high parts).}
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hiskeys
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Re: Copenhagen Royal Chapel Choir - Video

Post by hiskeys »

Thanks for sharing. I think it was an interesting and balanced presentation. There's a struggle between wanting to go on as long as you possibly can, having loyalty to the group and not wanting to let people down; and you've invested a great deal of time and effort, had great times and made good friends. And yet you know that it's inevitable and that you need to do what's best long term for your voice and future.

I would imagine that each transition is unique, and family influence and school are big factors also. I can only assume that Libera - class organization that it is - does what it can to prepare boys ahead of time to plan and prepare mentally for their different roles. After all, much of our lives are shaped by our expectations, and if we can achieve the right state of mind so that we're content regardless of outcome, half the battle is won.

With Libera having a largely Christian repertoire, it hope it's OK to refer to Paul in Philippians 4:11-13 - "I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or want. I can do everything through him who gives me strength."

In another thread, I referenced this video, where the Minnesota Boychoir takes time to sing a blessing (May the road rise up to meet you . . .) while the director gets a chance to publicly speak a word of encouragement and hug the departing members, and the rest of the choir gets to applaud them at the end also. Although I don't think it would be appropriate for Libera, it's a thoughtful gesture in a number of ways.

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Re: Copenhagen Royal Chapel Choir - Video

Post by filiarheni »

hiskeys wrote: <span title="Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:39 am">6 years ago</span> I can only assume that Libera - class organization that it is - does what it can to prepare boys ahead of time to plan and prepare mentally for their different roles. After all, much of our lives are shaped by our expectations, and if we can achieve the right state of mind so that we're content regardless of outcome, half the battle is won.
I think so, too. The boys, when entering the choir, will all know that it will be for a period of time that will sure come to an end and that the length varies individually. If they were not told, that would be reckless. And what should make it easier is also that they experience constantly how the other boys' voices break, how it goes, slowly or all of a sudden, and how they handle it and proceed after the voice change is completed. I consider it as essential that they are aware of it all the time and that they, when the time comes, are not left alone and are caught in case they feel like falling!

The Kölner Domchor (Cologne Cathedral Boys choir) writes on its website:
"During the mutation from the boys' voice to the male voice, these "voice breakers" support the Cathedral music especially through their participation in the Evensongs. In the time of the mutation, special care is taken in the Cologne Cathedral music that the young people learn to deal with their new voice. This may be easier for the one than for others, in separate voice training their development is to be supported according to the individual state."
http://koelner-dommusik.de/index.php/do ... bildung_dc

Certainly, it's sad to have to leave the choir. I feel sorry for the boy in the video who wasn't told how quickly it could happen. There was no need to have him feel like this. Voice change is a fact that no boy can escape. Therefore, the most important thing is to be prepared, so it is no bad surprise. Some Libera boys afterwards may stay with Libera in a different way, like Josh, Sam, Kavana and so forth, and this is a wonderful possibility to continue being a part of the Libera family.
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Re: Copenhagen Royal Chapel Choir - Video

Post by Surpinto »

Though Kinda_Kool already elucidated on this point, I too am in agreement with the vocal coach he was working with about it being a part of the boys identity to sing in the choir and quitting means losing a part of that identity. I think that this happens outside of music as well in the life of a child; when that which gives them their sense of identity changes suddenly.

It goes without saying that just like in this film, music and singing has positively impacted many children's lives. And adults too; even those who are just listening. Let's think for a second. We are all adults on this forum with busy lives, jobs, families, and other hobbies unrelated to music or Libera. Yet we choose to devote our limited time and energy to discussing and sharing our mutual enjoyment of not only a very specific genre of music, but a specific group. This underlines the effect that music can have on even those here who have listened to countless hours of music. How much more meaningful therefore is it to younger people who are hearing, singing and/or otherwise experiencing some kind of moving musical piece for the first time? The importance of these things cannot be overstated.

Thank you for the link, Jay, it got me into a philosophical mood if nothing else. :lol:
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chris17
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Re: Copenhagen Royal Chapel Choir - Video

Post by chris17 »

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing!

I do think it's very accurate to say that being in a choir does become part of your identity. I actually recently had to leave my cathedral choir due to a move, but the difference for me is that I'll be able to rejoin it in a couple years. With members of a boys choir like the one in the video, even if they sing in the same choir after their voice changes, they'll be singing an entirely different voice part and they won't be one of the boys anymore - instead they'll be one of the men.

With Libera, I seem to remember some of the boys talking about their eventual voice changes in an interview or two. I would imagine that Libera does prepare the boys to some extent. One big difference between Libera and a choir like the video, though, is that Libera has the boys divided into far more voice parts than a typical boys choir would, which we know for sure based on their recent interview. Not all of the boys have to be able to reach the highest notes, and we know that some boys join the "back row" as their voices change. And then, as filiarheni mentioned, some of the boys can also to assist with the choir in other roles. So I think that a changing voice may not be as final for Libera boys as for boys in other choirs, like the one in the video.

As far as singing through the voice change (bear in mind that I'm a speech-language pathologist, so this might be more info than some of you are interested in):

I haven't heard any hard and fast evidence that this is harmful in itself. One of the biggest issues for boys with changing voices would likely be forcing their voices to sing far higher than their natural range as their voice deepens, since this could strain the voice. For boys whose voice change is very sudden and causes their voice to become croaky, or causes them to have frequent pitch breaks, I would imagine that singing would be difficult and probably not a very good idea until their voice becomes more stable. However, with a more gradual voice change, as long as there isn't any extra strain or tension as the boy sings, I don't think it would be likely to damage the voice. Everyone's voices change over the course of their lives anyway; there's a difference between a 3-year-old's voice and a 7-year-old's voice, and a difference between a 7-year-old's voice and a 12-year-old's voice, even if none of them have changed voices. Girls' voices do change around the time of puberty as well, but the change isn't nearly as large and it's typically much less noticeable.

For those interested in more detail about the voice in singing and voice disorders: When you sing, the vocal folds come together many, many times a second. Although the exact number of times depends on the pitch of the note, it's often 200 times or more, especially for treble voices and female voices. If this happens forcefully, it can cause irritation of the vocal folds. Over time, this can lead to various vocal pathologies, such as vocal nodules. If you've heard various popular singers who sing in a very powerful and forceful way, their way of singing may cause more irritation to the vocal folds than, say, what we hear in Libera. Generally, anything that causes excessive tension in the larynx (possibly including singing far outside your natural range; also, some people simply sing or speak with too much tension in general), and anything that causes the vocal folds to slam together forcefully could be potentially damaging to the voice. Besides singing, it's also problematic when people clear their throats excessively and yell or speak in a raised voice excessively. Remember how the Libera boys typically spend quiet time before the concerts? It's probably a good idea. :) I think I remember from a blog at some point that they also play certain outdoor games in silence to avoid shouting and straining their voices.
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Re: Copenhagen Royal Chapel Choir - Video

Post by Surpinto »

Wow, Chris, I did not know all of these things about the biological aspects of singing and the effect on the larynx. Thank you for an interesting read. Far from being superfluous I find this type of information highly informative and of great interest. The intellectually curious amongst us value the expertise that you, as a speech pathologist, can bring to bear on this discussion. Thank you!
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Re: Copenhagen Royal Chapel Choir - Video

Post by filiarheni »

Actually, this is a very fine group here on Libera Dreams: Same opinions to be enthusiastic together - different opinions to broaden the own horizon - have experts in most various areas to learn from and collect it all here. I totally enjoy it! :)

And I enjoyed your long information about the voice, chris17. Since Libera is the first boys choir I have to do with, I always just thought that a boy can't or shouldn't sing during the changing period. As if something would literally "break", when he does. I was as surprised as glad to discover that I was wrong and many of them can go on.
All you wrote is really interesting! I had learnt, too, that clearing the throat can do harm to the voice. The same with the "hard" pronunciation of the vowels at a word's beginning, which sounds like a crack; this should be avoided ("glottal stop" it's called, I think?).

One of the first things I noticed, when I got to know Libera, was the great care with which they treat their voices. This could be heard and seen in the videos (I was watching some Leiden concert videos at that time). So I learnt from them for my own singing. During the choir rehearsal that followed, I tried to simply imitate their gentle, light way of singing and it was an incredible experience to feel the easiness over the whole pitch range along with no problems at all with high notes, all leading to a more homogeneous sound - right away. All evening long. After the rehearsal, I was high! :lol:)

This was something to add to my happiness to have found their music: that they furthermore provided a practical impulse for me indeed that turned out to be so useful. Of course, there is coaching in the choirs, but it is not easy to transfer theory into practice. This just taking Libera as a model helped amazingly, and it motivated me to go on this way, letting myself guide by the Libera singing way. Can you imagine how good this feels? :D

Surpinto wrote: <span title="Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:40 am">6 years ago</span> Though Kinda_Kool already elucidated on this point, I too am in agreement with the vocal coach he was working with about it being a part of the boys identity to sing in the choir and quitting means losing a part of that identity.
In my eyes, it is also a parents' task to prepare their child, vocal coach and parents should pull together. I would have done so, if my sons had sung in a boys choir.

chris17 wrote: <span title="Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:30 am">6 years ago</span> With Libera, I seem to remember some of the boys talking about their eventual voice changes in an interview or two. I would imagine that Libera does prepare the boys to some extent.
Do you remember which interviews these were and maybe post the links? I'd be curious to hear them, thank you!

I am convinced that particularly Robert prepares the Libera boys the best way it can be done. If I remember right, he was 18 when he became the choir's conductor. So he was next to the age of his own voice change and thus as near to the situation as possible. With such a beginning, he was "within the topic" as we would say here from the first minute, he didn't have to learn hard how to deal with the boys at the point of their voice change. He has always known what it feels like and how to handle it; so he sure does it at best with the boys. At least that's what I imagine. (I'm struggling to find the right words ... don't know.)
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Re: Copenhagen Royal Chapel Choir - Video

Post by chris17 »

Surpinto wrote: <span title="Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:55 am">6 years ago</span> Wow, Chris, I did not know all of these things about the biological aspects of singing and the effect on the larynx. Thank you for an interesting read. Far from being superfluous I find this type of information highly informative and of great interest. The intellectually curious amongst us value the expertise that you, as a speech pathologist, can bring to bear on this discussion. Thank you!
Glad to hear you found it interesting! :D
filiarheni wrote: <span title="Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:16 pm">6 years ago</span> All you wrote is really interesting! I had learnt, too, that clearing the throat can do harm to the voice. The same with the "hard" pronunciation of the vowels at a word's beginning, which sounds like a crack; this should be avoided ("glottal stop" it's called, I think?).
Forgot to mention that, but yes! I've typically heard that called hard glottal attack, but it's exactly what you described. It's another thing that would be considered a vocally-abusive behavior. The term "glottal stop" is a term that you've probably heard also, and it does relate to the larynx, but in a slightly different way; it's actually used to describe a particular speech sound. It's used in English, but it's not an "official" sound and most people are unaware of it. We Americans sometimes use it to replace a "t" in certain words ending with a syllabic "n" sound - instead airflow being stopped by the tongue as in a "t" sound, it's stopped in the larynx, hence the term "glottal stop." It's also sometimes used to divide two vowels. For example, when you say "uh oh," the space between the two vowels where the airflow stops is a glottal stop. Here's a video demonstrating the sound; shortly after 3:00 in the video, she compares "mountain" with a "t" vs. "mountain" with a glottal stop.


filiarheni wrote: <span title="Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:16 pm">6 years ago</span> Do you remember which interviews these were and maybe post the links? I'd be curious to hear them, thank you!
I do not remember the specific interviews off hand, but if I find them I will post them here. I want to think I remember Kavana talking at one point about the topic, but I'm not sure.
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Re: Copenhagen Royal Chapel Choir - Video

Post by Padmachou »

I'm pretty sure Cassius did an interview after his voice changed and he did talk about it too, but I don't know when or where...

I watched the video, and I agree that the boy wasn't aware enough about what was coming. That's pretty strange, he looks like he's 13 or 14, he probably knew boys who already left the group... Interesting video but not so realistic I find.
But yes, it looks like Libera works like a family that would be more supportive than that when the boys leave. I've always wondered though if the boys that stay after their voices break aren't more keen to do so if and when they weren't main soloists... I think about boys like Thomas DL or Ciaran ; why is it that we never saw them again ? Isn't it more difficult for them to come back ? Of course we can find examples that show otherwise... (currently : Isaac, Alex...) But I do hope Thomas still sings somewhere...

The movie Boychoir was pretty interesting too, about voice breaking. The main character Stet makes some brilliant solos before his voice breaks. There are amazing dialogues with the vocal teacher, about how he had a special talent that wasn't really "his" but a gift and the work he did had no finality as it was the work itself that had value because now he has great memories and it helped him to forge his personality. Discussions are mainly about if he still wants to sing in the choir or not. Althought this movie is really harsh about pressure in choirs, I find that part really soft and warm.
Last edited by Padmachou on Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Copenhagen Royal Chapel Choir - Video

Post by kinda_k00l »

chris17 wrote: <span title="Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:00 am">6 years ago</span> The term "glottal stop" is a term that you've probably heard also, and it does relate to the larynx, but in a slightly different way; it's actually used to describe a particular speech sound. It's used in English, but it's not an "official" sound and most people are unaware of it.
Why does English linguistics suddenly came back to me after I've finished a difficult course about it in the last semester? :shock: You make me feel like the course is gone, but not gone. :lol:

Padmachou wrote: <span title="Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:30 pm">6 years ago</span> I'm pretty sure Cassius did an interview after his voice changed and he did talk about it too, but I don't know when or where...
I'll go search for it!! :roll:


Padmachou wrote: <span title="Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:30 pm">6 years ago</span> I think about boys like Thomas DL or Ciaran ; why is it that we never saw them again ? Isn't it more difficult for them to come back ?
I think about it pretty much as well. There are a lot of things happen inside of Libera that we can't get to know, so the predictable reasons are countless. As a matter of fact, Libera does not need too many tenor singers, as they can cause imbalance to the overall volume. So that may affect the process somehow? :idea:
And I really hope that Tom DL is continuing with singing too (I really love his voice & technique), as well as other 'older' Libera boys. :D
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Re: Copenhagen Royal Chapel Choir - Video

Post by andmar »

Thank you Jay for sharing the link.
This is an interesting topic since each and every boy chorister will have to handle the voice change when his time comes.
It was very interesting to read the discussion in this thread. Many thanks to all contributors.

filiarheni wrote: <span title="Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:09 pm">6 years ago</span> The boys, when entering the choir, will all know that it will be for a period of time that will sure come to an end and that the length varies individually
I'm not sure, if the boys really care about their future voice change when they join the choir. At the age of 8, things which are going to happen in 4, 5 or 6 years are so extremely far, that no one actually cares.

filiarheni wrote: <span title="Tue Sep 26, 2017 12:09 pm">6 years ago</span> If they were not told, that would be reckless. And what should make it easier is also that they experience constantly how the other boys' voices break, how it goes, slowly or all of a sudden, and how they handle it and proceed after the voice change is completed. I consider it as essential that they are aware of it all the time and that they, when the time comes, are not left alone and are caught in case they feel like falling!
Of course, I'm sure, when they grow older, they are made aware of the inevitable changes at the right time and are taken care of when it starts. This is such an essential thing in a boy choir, that I can't imagine any other way, especially in an organization, which works as professionally as Libera.

kinda_k00l wrote: <span title="Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:25 pm">6 years ago</span>
Padmachou wrote: <span title="Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:30 pm">6 years ago</span> I think about boys like Thomas DL or Ciaran ; why is it that we never saw them again ? Isn't it more difficult for them to come back ?
I think about it pretty much as well. There are a lot of things happen inside of Libera that we can't get to know, so the predictable reasons are countless.
Some choristers leave the choir, some stay - we have many examples of both. They may continue with music, but also may decide to do something completely different. They are still very young and still have some time to decide what to do in their lives (Tom DL said in one of the interviews, he wanted to be a lawyer :) ). But in any case they must have their privacy - this is why we usually don't get to know about such things. I know that the safety and privacy is of the highest importance in Libera and this is how it should be. The boys deserve to have normal lives whilst they are in the group and after they have left.
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